I read through most of those threads and I actually might be learning
something from them. ( BTW Art, keep posting your stuff too! I try to
read most all threads unless the subject line looks absolutely boring.
) My question is, there were two A bombs dropped, but only one by the
Enola Gay. Why no controversy over the display of Bockscar? Was there
controversy over Bockscar ever?? I remember one of the statements posed
by the original poster was that "

The plane, in fact, differs little from other B-29s and
gains its notoriety only from the deadly and history-altering nature

of its mission." Okay, so what if the Smithsonian didn't display the
Enola Gay, how about Bockscar? How about "The Great Artiste"? Would
that be less controversial?? It flew along side both bomb runs! Why is
it only the Enola Gay that stirs this stuff up? Past and present?

Mark and Kim Smith wrote:

> read most all threads unless the subject line looks absolutely boring.
> ) My question is, there were two A bombs dropped, but only one by the
> Enola Gay. Why no controversy over the display of Bockscar? Was there
> controversy over Bockscar ever?? I remember one of the statements posed
> by the original poster was that "
> The plane, in fact, differs little from *other* B-29s and
> gains its notoriety only from the deadly and history-altering nature
> of its mission." Okay, so what if the Smithsonian didn't display the
> Enola Gay, how about Bockscar? How about "The Great Artiste"? Would
> that be less controversial?? It flew along side both bomb runs! Why is
> it only the Enola Gay that stirs this stuff up? Past and present?

I think many of the "demonstrators" against use of the nuke in WWII are
"reflex" protesters. They single out Enola Gay because it is known. I'd
be willing to bet a significant portion of them don't even know Bockscar,
and certainly not Great Artiste.

The same sort of thing has happened with the type of bombings. Hundreds
of thousands dead from firebombs doesn't get much mention. But if they
died of a nuclear bomb, it's somehow immoral.

Enola Gay was the first and thus has the notoriety. It's a well known
focal point with symbolic and political significance.

I would think if attacks on Enola Gay become common (which could be the
case every year on the anniversary of Hiroshima), replacing the exhibit
with another B-29 might be a good idea. It would be a shame to have to
limit access to the exhibits because of the dangers of a few politically
driven whackos.


SMH

> My question is, there were two A bombs dropped, but only one by the
>Enola Gay. Why no controversy over the display of Bockscar?

For the same reason that 60,000-90,000 dead at Hiroshima weighs less
in the balance than 100,000 dead in the Tokyo fire-bombing.

Enola Gay was a leap into the new world, rather like the Wright Flyer,
so we get excited about these vehicles. I have seen Bockscar, and I
saw the partial display of Enola Gay in 1995, but I am really looking
forward to seeing the whole aircraft at Udvar-Hazy next month. That is
the plane that carried The Bomb and that ended the war, in a way
unrivaled by any other aircraft of the hundreds of thousands that flew
in harm's way from 1937 to 1945.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
...
> Mark and Kim Smith wrote:
>
> > read most all threads unless the subject line looks absolutely boring.
> > ) My question is, there were two A bombs dropped, but only one by the
> > Enola Gay. Why no controversy over the display of Bockscar? Was there
> > controversy over Bockscar ever?? I remember one of the statements posed
> > by the original poster was that "
> > The plane, in fact, differs little from *other* B-29s and
> > gains its notoriety only from the deadly and history-altering nature
> > of its mission." Okay, so what if the Smithsonian didn't display the
> > Enola Gay, how about Bockscar? How about "The Great Artiste"? Would
> > that be less controversial?? It flew along side both bomb runs! Why is
> > it only the Enola Gay that stirs this stuff up? Past and present?
>
> I think many of the "demonstrators" against use of the nuke in WWII are
> "reflex" protesters. They single out Enola Gay because it is known. I'd
> be willing to bet a significant portion of them don't even know Bockscar,
> and certainly not Great Artiste.
>
> The same sort of thing has happened with the type of bombings. Hundreds
> of thousands dead from firebombs doesn't get much mention. But if they
> died of a nuclear bomb, it's somehow immoral.
>
> Enola Gay was the first and thus has the notoriety. It's a well known
> focal point with symbolic and political significance.
>
> I would think if attacks on Enola Gay become common (which could be the
> case every year on the anniversary of Hiroshima), replacing the exhibit
> with another B-29 might be a good idea. It would be a shame to have to
> limit access to the exhibits because of the dangers of a few politically
> driven whackos.
>
>
> SMH

I agree with this analysis and have felt this way generally since the bomb
was dropped.
I would only add to this that there is now, and always has been, a
contingent of people in the United States, ( in the world actually)
comprised of those not involved directly by these things, who will react to
something like this based completely on their negative emotional response to
it ; without ever considering they are completely out of the loop of solid
data used in making such decisions. It's a very interesting factor really;
people having the right of free decision, but lacking the real first hand
knowledge required to exercise that right intelligently by not being in the
loop of decision that has affected their "vote" either way. Yet, based on
what they have heard or read, they form rock solid opinions that are totally
inflexible to change of any kind. I've always wondered how these opinions
can be so solidly formed based on out of the loop information, yet not be
subject to change by the influx of additional out of the loop information.
I've always been fascinated by this interesting observation :-)
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

Dudley Henriques wrote:
> I agree with this analysis and have felt this way generally since the bomb
> was dropped.
> I would only add to this that there is now, and always has been, a
> contingent of people in the United States, ( in the world actually)
> comprised of those not involved directly by these things, who will react to
> something like this based completely on their negative emotional response to
> it ; without ever considering they are completely out of the loop of solid
> data used in making such decisions. It's a very interesting factor really;
> people having the right of free decision, but lacking the real first hand
> knowledge required to exercise that right intelligently by not being in the
> loop of decision that has affected their "vote" either way. Yet, based on
> what they have heard or read, they form rock solid opinions that are totally
> inflexible to change of any kind. I've always wondered how these opinions
> can be so solidly formed based on out of the loop information, yet not be
> subject to change by the influx of additional out of the loop information.
> I've always been fascinated by this interesting observation :-)
> Dudley Henriques
> International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
> Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

Dudley -

Unfortunately, it's a little appreciated fact that half of the world's
population is below average in intelligence (the percentage sometimes
seems higher in the newsgroups... :-)

Further, many of them were never taught (or never learned) logical
thinking, problem solving skills, or the scientific method.

Finally, many choose to make decisions based primarily on their
emotional reactions instead of rational thought.

Neither good nor bad; just the way it is.

In light of this, what you (correctly) describe is certainly not
surprising.

Happy Holidays anyway

"No Spam!" > wrote in message
...
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
> > I agree with this analysis and have felt this way generally since the
bomb
> > was dropped.
> > I would only add to this that there is now, and always has been, a
> > contingent of people in the United States, ( in the world actually)
> > comprised of those not involved directly by these things, who will react
to
> > something like this based completely on their negative emotional
response to
> > it ; without ever considering they are completely out of the loop of
solid
> > data used in making such decisions. It's a very interesting factor
really;
> > people having the right of free decision, but lacking the real first
hand
> > knowledge required to exercise that right intelligently by not being in
the
> > loop of decision that has affected their "vote" either way. Yet, based
on
> > what they have heard or read, they form rock solid opinions that are
totally
> > inflexible to change of any kind. I've always wondered how these
opinions
> > can be so solidly formed based on out of the loop information, yet not
be
> > subject to change by the influx of additional out of the loop
information.
> > I've always been fascinated by this interesting observation :-)
> > Dudley Henriques
> > International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
> > Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
>
> Dudley -
>
> Unfortunately, it's a little appreciated fact that half of the world's
> population is below average in intelligence (the percentage sometimes
> seems higher in the newsgroups... :-)
>
> Further, many of them were never taught (or never learned) logical
> thinking, problem solving skills, or the scientific method.
>
> Finally, many choose to make decisions based primarily on their
> emotional reactions instead of rational thought.
>
> Neither good nor bad; just the way it is.
>
> In light of this, what you (correctly) describe is certainly not
> surprising.
>
> Happy Holidays anyway

anyway!!! :-))

I should note to you that whenever I even come close to extending my comment
on this issue to include discussing what you are discussing here, I ALWAYS
stop short of where you have gone with it since where it would take me is
right into what I believe has happened in the United States educational
system....and THAT opens a large door for the usual flame responses that I'd
rather avoid if possible since it's such a controversial issue. :-))))
In short, you and I are not far apart on this at all!!! I just stopped in
the "safe" zone!!!:-))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 06:59:09 -0500, Stephen Harding > wrote:

>Mark and Kim Smith wrote:
>
>> read most all threads unless the subject line looks absolutely boring.
>> ) My question is, there were two A bombs dropped, but only one by the
>> Enola Gay. Why no controversy over the display of Bockscar? Was there
>> controversy over Bockscar ever?? I remember one of the statements posed
>> by the original poster was that "
>> The plane, in fact, differs little from *other* B-29s and
>> gains its notoriety only from the deadly and history-altering nature
>> of its mission." Okay, so what if the Smithsonian didn't display the
>> Enola Gay, how about Bockscar? How about "The Great Artiste"? Would
>> that be less controversial?? It flew along side both bomb runs! Why is
>> it only the Enola Gay that stirs this stuff up? Past and present?
>
>I think many of the "demonstrators" against use of the nuke in WWII are
>"reflex" protesters. They single out Enola Gay because it is known. I'd
>be willing to bet a significant portion of them don't even know Bockscar,
>and certainly not Great Artiste.
>
>The same sort of thing has happened with the type of bombings. Hundreds
>of thousands dead from firebombs doesn't get much mention. But if they
>died of a nuclear bomb, it's somehow immoral.
>
>Enola Gay was the first and thus has the notoriety. It's a well known
>focal point with symbolic and political significance.
>
>I would think if attacks on Enola Gay become common (which could be the
>case every year on the anniversary of Hiroshima), replacing the exhibit
>with another B-29 might be a good idea. It would be a shame to have to
>limit access to the exhibits because of the dangers of a few politically
>driven whackos.
>
>
>SMH

That would be surrendering to terrorists (the cowardly scum who stage
such attacks are certainly terrorists). IMHO surrendering to terrorists is
not a good strategy.

Al Minyard

>From: Mark and Kim Smith
>Date: 12/23/2003 4:07 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>--------------040509020503020207010504
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>I read through most of those threads and I actually might be learning
>something from them. ( BTW Art, keep posting your stuff too! I try to
>read most all threads unless the subject line looks absolutely boring.
>) My question is, there were two A bombs dropped, but only one by the
>Enola Gay. Why no controversy over the display of Bockscar? Was there
>controversy over Bockscar ever??

I can think of some reasons Bockscar never got the protests:

1) It's been on display since before such protests were popular. I doubt it got
the media coverage Enola Gay receives.

2) It's displayed in a museum dedicated to military flight.

3) Most people know the name Enola Gay not Bockscar.

4) There are people who know about the Smithsonian yet have no clue Wright Pat
even exists.

5) stuff like that there.

It's all a matter of visibility and timing.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

B2431 wrote:

>>From: Mark and Kim Smith
>>Date: 12/23/2003 4:07 AM Central Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>>--------------040509020503020207010504
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>
>>I read through most of those threads and I actually might be learning
>>something from them. ( BTW Art, keep posting your stuff too! I try to
>>read most all threads unless the subject line looks absolutely boring.
>>) My question is, there were two A bombs dropped, but only one by the
>>Enola Gay. Why no controversy over the display of Bockscar? Was there
>>controversy over Bockscar ever??
>>
>>
>
>
>
>3) Most people know the name Enola Gay not Bockscar.
>

This seems to tie in to other posts where folks are just plain
uneducated about stuff. I'm referring to the original Enola Gay poster
who suggested that any B29 would do. I would assume that this person
would have no problem displaying Bockscar by the Snmithsonian. That is
until he found out what role it played back then.

>
>
>It's all a matter of visibility and timing.
>

Which seems to me a ridiculous way to begin a protest. Like a kid on a
dirt bike only knows two ways, either all the way on or all the way
off. There is no in between!

>
>Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired
>
>
>
>
>
>

"No Spam!" > wrote:

>Unfortunately, it's a little appreciated fact that half of the world's
>population is below average in intelligence

I seem to be having trouble making sense out of this
statement...perhaps you could enlighten me please?...
--

-Gord.

On 23 Dec 2003 05:07:57 EST, Mark and Kim Smith
> wrote:

> I read through most of those threads and I actually might be learning
> something from them. ( BTW Art, keep posting your stuff too! I try to
> read most all threads unless the subject line looks absolutely boring.
> ) My question is, there were two A bombs dropped, but only one by the
> Enola Gay. Why no controversy over the display of Bockscar? Was there
> controversy over Bockscar ever?? I remember one of the statements posed
> by the original poster was that "The plane, in fact, differs little from other B-29s and
> gains its notoriety only from the deadly and history-altering nature
> of its mission." Okay, so what if the Smithsonian didn't display the
> Enola Gay, how about Bockscar? How about "The Great Artiste"? Would
> that be less controversial?? It flew along side both bomb runs! Why is
> it only the Enola Gay that stirs this stuff up? Past and present?

Maybe it's because Bockscar is on display in the USAF museum, on a
USAF base?

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

In that case, why no complaints that it can be easily found on the web.
Why no complaints that any description on the web doesn't make mention
of the deaths it caused from dropping the second bomb? Would these
folks still complain if the Smithsonian put the Enola Gay back in
storage and borrowed the Bockscar for display?

BTW, Mary, I enjoy some of your posts about the SR-71 and whatnot. A
fellow where I work, used to work on / in / around the SR-71 and shares
a few stories when I prompt him. He has a neat photo, amongst a few
others, of him in the cockpit.

Mary Shafer wrote:

>On 23 Dec 2003 05:07:57 EST, Mark and Kim Smith
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>I read through most of those threads and I actually might be learning
>>something from them. ( BTW Art, keep posting your stuff too! I try to
>>read most all threads unless the subject line looks absolutely boring.
>>) My question is, there were two A bombs dropped, but only one by the
>>Enola Gay. Why no controversy over the display of Bockscar? Was there
>>controversy over Bockscar ever?? I remember one of the statements posed
>>by the original poster was that "The plane, in fact, differs little from other B-29s and
>>gains its notoriety only from the deadly and history-altering nature
>>of its mission." Okay, so what if the Smithsonian didn't display the
>>Enola Gay, how about Bockscar? How about "The Great Artiste"? Would
>>that be less controversial?? It flew along side both bomb runs! Why is
>>it only the Enola Gay that stirs this stuff up? Past and present?
>>
>>
>
>Maybe it's because Bockscar is on display in the USAF museum, on a
>USAF base?
>
>Mary
>
>
>

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 04:22:37 GMT, "Gord Beaman" ) wrote:

>"No Spam!" > wrote:
>
>>Unfortunately, it's a little appreciated fact that half of the world's
>>population is below average in intelligence
>
>I seem to be having trouble making sense out of this
>statement...perhaps you could enlighten me please?...

Well, since the "average" is the mean, half will be
above it and half will be below it. Thus it is
correct to say "half of the world's population is below
average intelligence". How one goes about measuring
"intelligence" is a different kettle of fish.

Al Minyard

Alan Minyard wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 04:22:37 GMT, "Gord Beaman" ) wrote:
>
> >"No Spam!" > wrote:
> >
> >>Unfortunately, it's a little appreciated fact that half of the world's
> >>population is below average in intelligence
> >
> >I seem to be having trouble making sense out of this
> >statement...perhaps you could enlighten me please?...
>
> Well, since the "average" is the mean, half will be
> above it and half will be below it. Thus it is
> correct to say "half of the world's population is below
> average intelligence". How one goes about measuring
> "intelligence" is a different kettle of fish.
>
> Al Minyard

Perhaps the confusion arises from the definitions of "mean" and "median" The
terms are not necessarily synonymous. The mean, or average value of a population
is the sum of the values divided by the number of values in the population. The
median of a population of numbers arranged in order of size is the value that
has an equal number of values above it as below it.

Example: the average of the values 2, 3, 6, 8, 100 is (2+4+6+8+100)/5=24
The mean is 6 because there are two numbers more than six, and two numbers less
than six in the sample. Note that the average would also be six if the 100 were
to be replaced by a ten

Cheers

--
Indrek Aavisto
Sudbury, Ontario

"Criticism is easy; achievement is difficult" W. S. Churchill

Alan Minyard > wrote:

>On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 04:22:37 GMT, "Gord Beaman" ) wrote:
>
>>"No Spam!" > wrote:
>>
>>>Unfortunately, it's a little appreciated fact that half of the world's
>>>population is below average in intelligence
>>
>>I seem to be having trouble making sense out of this
>>statement...perhaps you could enlighten me please?...
>
>Well, since the "average" is the mean, half will be
>above it and half will be below it. Thus it is
>correct to say "half of the world's population is below
>average intelligence". How one goes about measuring
>"intelligence" is a different kettle of fish.
>
>Al Minyard

Of course!...that's my point...He's saying it as if it were a bad
thing when it couldn't be any other way. It's like saying "The
average is the average".

He could just as correctly have said "Half of the world's
population is above average in intelligence".

--

-Gord.

Mark and Kim Smith ) wrote:
: This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
: --------------040509020503020207010504
: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

: I read through most of those threads and I actually might be learning
: something from them. ( BTW Art, keep posting your stuff too! I try to
: read most all threads unless the subject line looks absolutely boring.
: ) My question is, there were two A bombs dropped, but only one by the
: Enola Gay. Why no controversy over the display of Bockscar? Was there
: controversy over Bockscar ever?? I remember one of the statements posed
: by the original poster was that "

: The plane, in fact, differs little from other B-29s and
: gains its notoriety only from the deadly and history-altering nature

: of its mission." Okay, so what if the Smithsonian didn't display the
: Enola Gay, how about Bockscar? How about "The Great Artiste"? Would
: that be less controversial?? It flew along side both bomb runs! Why is
: it only the Enola Gay that stirs this stuff up? Past and present?

Bock's Car is at the Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio. It has
nowhere near the "name recognition" of Enola Gay, so it doesn't
draw protestors. Don't know if Great Artiste is still in existence.

Mary Shafer ) wrote:
: On 23 Dec 2003 05:07:57 EST, Mark and Kim Smith
: > wrote:

: > I read through most of those threads and I actually might be learning
: > something from them. ( BTW Art, keep posting your stuff too! I try to
: > read most all threads unless the subject line looks absolutely boring.
: > ) My question is, there were two A bombs dropped, but only one by the
: > Enola Gay. Why no controversy over the display of Bockscar? Was there
: > controversy over Bockscar ever?? I remember one of the statements posed
: > by the original poster was that "The plane, in fact, differs little from other B-29s and
: > gains its notoriety only from the deadly and history-altering nature
: > of its mission." Okay, so what if the Smithsonian didn't display the
: > Enola Gay, how about Bockscar? How about "The Great Artiste"? Would
: > that be less controversial?? It flew along side both bomb runs! Why is
: > it only the Enola Gay that stirs this stuff up? Past and present?

: Maybe it's because Bockscar is on display in the USAF museum, on a
: USAF base?

But still very open to the public, if anybody wanted to create
a fuss they certainly could. But this would presume a broader and
deeper knowledge of history than most potential protesters have.

Indrek Aavisto wrote:
>
> Alan Minyard wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 04:22:37 GMT, "Gord Beaman" ) wrote:
> >
> > >"No Spam!" > wrote:
> > >
> > >>Unfortunately, it's a little appreciated fact that half of the world's
> > >>population is below average in intelligence
> > >
> > >I seem to be having trouble making sense out of this
> > >statement...perhaps you could enlighten me please?...
> >
> > Well, since the "average" is the mean, half will be
> > above it and half will be below it. Thus it is
> > correct to say "half of the world's population is below
> > average intelligence". How one goes about measuring
> > "intelligence" is a different kettle of fish.
> >
> > Al Minyard
>
> Perhaps the confusion arises from the definitions of "mean" and "median" The
> terms are not necessarily synonymous. The mean, or average value of a population
> is the sum of the values divided by the number of values in the population. The
> median of a population of numbers arranged in order of size is the value that
> has an equal number of values above it as below it.
>
> Example: the average of the values 2, 3, 6, 8, 100 is (2+4+6+8+100)/5=24
> The mean is 6 because there are two numbers more than six, and two numbers less
> than six in the sample. Note that the average would also be six if the 100 were
> to be replaced by a ten
>
> Cheers
>
> --
> Indrek Aavisto
> Sudbury, Ontario
>
> "Criticism is easy; achievement is difficult" W. S. Churchill



Criticism is indeed easy; (Churchill loved semicolons).

The Average is the total of the values divided by the number of values -
in the example above it would be 23.8

The Mean is the value midway between the values of the smallest and
largest terms -
in the example above it would be 51

The Median is the middle value of a series arranged in order of size -
in the example above it would be 6

The Mode is the value which occurs most frequently in the set -
in the example above there is no mode.

All of which assumes we are talking arithmetic and not geometry or some
other subject.

Dave

According to armyairforces.com:

"Note: No photo on the Whiteman AFB web site. Restored and displayed at
Pease Air Force Base, Portsmouth, NH. Moved to Whiteman when Pease
closed. Saw service as an Air-Sea Rescue plane but it's claim to fame
was that it flew alongside "Enola Gay" and dropped instruments to
measure the blast."

Currently at Whiteman AFB.

Merlin Dorfman wrote:

>Mark and Kim Smith ) wrote:
>: This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>: --------------040509020503020207010504
>: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>: I read through most of those threads and I actually might be learning
>: something from them. ( BTW Art, keep posting your stuff too! I try to
>: read most all threads unless the subject line looks absolutely boring.
>: ) My question is, there were two A bombs dropped, but only one by the
>: Enola Gay. Why no controversy over the display of Bockscar? Was there
>: controversy over Bockscar ever?? I remember one of the statements posed
>: by the original poster was that "
>
>: The plane, in fact, differs little from other B-29s and
>: gains its notoriety only from the deadly and history-altering nature
>
>: of its mission." Okay, so what if the Smithsonian didn't display the
>: Enola Gay, how about Bockscar? How about "The Great Artiste"? Would
>: that be less controversial?? It flew along side both bomb runs! Why is
>: it only the Enola Gay that stirs this stuff up? Past and present?
>
> Bock's Car is at the Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio. It has
>nowhere near the "name recognition" of Enola Gay, so it doesn't
>draw protestors. Don't know if Great Artiste is still in existence.
>
>
>

Mark and Kim Smith wrote:

> According to armyairforces.com:
>
> "Note: No photo on the Whiteman AFB web site. Restored and displayed at
> Pease Air Force Base, Portsmouth, NH. Moved to Whiteman when Pease
> closed. Saw service as an Air-Sea Rescue plane but it's claim to fame
> was that it flew alongside "Enola Gay" and dropped instruments to
> measure the blast."
>
> Currently at Whiteman AFB.
>
> Merlin Dorfman wrote:
>
> >Mark and Kim Smith ) wrote:
> >: This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> >: --------------040509020503020207010504
> >: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
> >: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> >: I read through most of those threads and I actually might be learning
> >: something from them. ( BTW Art, keep posting your stuff too! I try to
> >: read most all threads unless the subject line looks absolutely boring.
> >: ) My question is, there were two A bombs dropped, but only one by the
> >: Enola Gay. Why no controversy over the display of Bockscar? Was there
> >: controversy over Bockscar ever?? I remember one of the statements posed
> >: by the original poster was that "
> >
> >: The plane, in fact, differs little from other B-29s and
> >: gains its notoriety only from the deadly and history-altering nature
> >
> >: of its mission." Okay, so what if the Smithsonian didn't display the
> >: Enola Gay, how about Bockscar? How about "The Great Artiste"? Would
> >: that be less controversial?? It flew along side both bomb runs! Why is
> >: it only the Enola Gay that stirs this stuff up? Past and present?
> >
> > Bock's Car is at the Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio. It has
> >nowhere near the "name recognition" of Enola Gay, so it doesn't
> >draw protestors. Don't know if Great Artiste is still in existence.
> >
> >
> >

here 'tis

http://www.coastcomp.com/av/pres/wilkinsn/b-29whit.htm

Bob McKellar

> But still very open to the public, if anybody wanted to create
>a fuss they certainly could. But this would presume a broader and
>deeper knowledge of history than most potential protesters have.

The average protestor probably doesn't even know that a nuclear weapon
was dropped on Nagasaki, let alone that Bockscar dropped it.

If you want to have some fun with a bright anti-warrior sometime, ask
her: "Say, how many world wars were there, anyhow?" and watch the
wheels spin.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 14:07:42 -0500, Indrek Aavisto > wrote:

>
>
>Alan Minyard wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 04:22:37 GMT, "Gord Beaman" ) wrote:
>>
>> >"No Spam!" > wrote:
>> >
>> >>Unfortunately, it's a little appreciated fact that half of the world's
>> >>population is below average in intelligence
>> >
>> >I seem to be having trouble making sense out of this
>> >statement...perhaps you could enlighten me please?...
>>
>> Well, since the "average" is the mean, half will be
>> above it and half will be below it. Thus it is
>> correct to say "half of the world's population is below
>> average intelligence". How one goes about measuring
>> "intelligence" is a different kettle of fish.
>>
>> Al Minyard
>
>Perhaps the confusion arises from the definitions of "mean" and "median" The
>terms are not necessarily synonymous. The mean, or average value of a population
>is the sum of the values divided by the number of values in the population. The
>median of a population of numbers arranged in order of size is the value that
>has an equal number of values above it as below it.
>
>Example: the average of the values 2, 3, 6, 8, 100 is (2+4+6+8+100)/5=24
>The mean is 6 because there are two numbers more than six, and two numbers less
>than six in the sample. Note that the average would also be six if the 100 were
>to be replaced by a ten
>
>Cheers

Correct, I was merely defining "mean" for those unfortunates who do not
understand the term.

Al Minyard

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:24:37 -0500, Dave Holford > wrote:

>
>
>Indrek Aavisto wrote:
>>
>> Alan Minyard wrote:
>>
>> > On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 04:22:37 GMT, "Gord Beaman" ) wrote:
>> >
>> > >"No Spam!" > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >>Unfortunately, it's a little appreciated fact that half of the world's
>> > >>population is below average in intelligence
>> > >
>> > >I seem to be having trouble making sense out of this
>> > >statement...perhaps you could enlighten me please?...
>> >
>> > Well, since the "average" is the mean, half will be
>> > above it and half will be below it. Thus it is
>> > correct to say "half of the world's population is below
>> > average intelligence". How one goes about measuring
>> > "intelligence" is a different kettle of fish.
>> >
>> > Al Minyard
>>
>> Perhaps the confusion arises from the definitions of "mean" and "median" The
>> terms are not necessarily synonymous. The mean, or average value of a population
>> is the sum of the values divided by the number of values in the population. The
>> median of a population of numbers arranged in order of size is the value that
>> has an equal number of values above it as below it.
>>
>> Example: the average of the values 2, 3, 6, 8, 100 is (2+4+6+8+100)/5=24
>> The mean is 6 because there are two numbers more than six, and two numbers less
>> than six in the sample. Note that the average would also be six if the 100 were
>> to be replaced by a ten
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> --
>> Indrek Aavisto
>> Sudbury, Ontario
>>
>> "Criticism is easy; achievement is difficult" W. S. Churchill
>
>
>
>Criticism is indeed easy; (Churchill loved semicolons).
>
>The Average is the total of the values divided by the number of values -
> in the example above it would be 23.8
>
>The Mean is the value midway between the values of the smallest and
>largest terms -
> in the example above it would be 51

According to "Statistics For Economics" by McClave and Benson "The
mean of a set of quantitative data is equal to the sum of the measurements
divided by the number of measurements contained in the data set"
That is also known as the "average".

Al Minyard

>
>The Median is the middle value of a series arranged in order of size -
> in the example above it would be 6
>
>The Mode is the value which occurs most frequently in the set -
> in the example above there is no mode.
>
>All of which assumes we are talking arithmetic and not geometry or some
>other subject.
>
>Dave

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:24:37 -0500, Dave Holford > wrote:
>
>The Average is the total of the values divided by the number of values -
> in the example above it would be 23.8
>
>The Mean is the value midway between the values of the smallest and
>largest terms -
> in the example above it would be 51

No, the mean is your definition of average, above.

>The Median is the middle value of a series arranged in order of size -
> in the example above it would be 6

Correct.


--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: >, but first subtract 275 and reverse
the last two letters).

>From: Cub Driver
>
>
>> But still very open to the public, if anybody wanted to create
>>a fuss they certainly could. But this would presume a broader and
>>deeper knowledge of history than most potential protesters have.
>
>The average protestor probably doesn't even know that a nuclear weapon
>was dropped on Nagasaki, let alone that Bockscar dropped it.
>
>If you want to have some fun with a bright anti-warrior sometime, ask
>her: "Say, how many world wars were there, anyhow?" and watch the
>wheels spin.
>
>all the best -- Dan Ford
>email:
>

The same is true about the Holocaust. Most people only know the name Auschwitz
and I suspect a great many in the media who refer to a person or a group of
persons being "sent to Auschwitz" use it as a generic term. In the same way
most people know about the 6 million Jews but not the 6 million non Jews who
died in the camps etc.

Schools should teach a bit more history, but how much more? You have to keep it
age appropriate and fairly simple. I was taught the sinking of the Lusitania in
1915 got the U.S. into WW1 in 1917. Mention of the Zimmerman telegram would
have been nice to add to that.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

You can also have fun asking if the US ever fought a war with Italy. To cause
brains to simulate a blue screen of death, ask in which world war(s) Italy and
the US were allies and in which were they enemies.


Chris Mark

On 26 Dec 2003 17:50:00 GMT, (Chris Mark) wrote:

>You can also have fun asking if the US ever fought a war with Italy. To cause
>brains to simulate a blue screen of death, ask in which world war(s) Italy and
>the US were allies and in which were they enemies.
>
>
>Chris Mark

Guess you have to read "Farewell to Arms" and then see "Patton."


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

phil hunt wrote:
>
> On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:24:37 -0500, Dave Holford > wrote:
> >
> >The Average is the total of the values divided by the number of values -
> > in the example above it would be 23.8
> >
> >The Mean is the value midway between the values of the smallest and
> >largest terms -
> > in the example above it would be 51
>
> No, the mean is your definition of average, above.
>
> >The Median is the middle value of a series arranged in order of size -
> > in the example above it would be 6
>
> Correct.
>
> --


You're right.
I'm wrong.

I'll try to pay more attention next year.

Dave

>From: Ed Rasimus

>Guess you have to read "Farewell to Arms" and then see "Patton."

That would help, but the consternation sets in when noting that Italy fought on
both sides in WW2, declaring war on Germany on Oct. 13, 1943, iirc.
That was confusing even then. As, for example, Macchis, enemy fighters, now
became friendly fighters.
At Elmo field, a co-occupant of the airdrome, along with allied fighter units,
was the famous Italian Air Force “Black Cat” squadron of the 155th
Autonomous Fighter Group. They were touted to be on par with the German
“Yellow-Nose” squadron. The rumor was that only fighter aces could fly with
them. Since their Macchi 202s, 205s, and Reggiane 2001s could fly inverted,
the Italians would buzz the field in a tight formation with half of the planes
inverted, thumbing their noses as the P-38 pilots also stationed on the field,
because the P-38 could not fly inverted.
It was quite an uncomfortable feeling for B-25 and B-25 pilots to see Macchis
come zooming in on them and then instead of attacking, take up escort
positions, ready to defend them from their erstwhile allies in Messerschmitts.





Chris Mark

>That would help, but the consternation sets in when noting that Italy fought on
>both sides in WW2,

There's a pretty town on the Mediterranean named Vernazza, and by the
railroad station / town square there's a WWII monument. At a rough
guess (it was five years ago) the town has a population of two
thousand and the plaque had the names of a hundred men who'd died in
WWII.

They were about equally divided between those who died in North
Africa, those "caduta in Russia", and those died fighting against the
Germans in the partisan war that followed Mussolini's deposition and
death.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com